Running some tests on an RGB to HDMI converter/upscaler and the SCART RGB cables I bought for my SNES. I'm extremely unsatisfied with the results. Read on for lessons learned and how I plan to remedy the situation!
There's a ton that's wrong here. Some I think because of the converter, some because of the cable:
- The aspect ratio is off, it's 16:9, but SNES was made to output 4:3. This is something the converter does not provide options for changing. If you want it to spit out 4:3 with black bars... too bad, your source signal is going to be smooshed into 16:9 and upscaled to 720p, and rather badly I might add! View this video in full screen at 720p to get a better sense of the issues (if not in this video, then in some of the other tests I posted).
- You may notice that in some of these tests, the audio is pretty badly out of sync. I'm pretty sure this is the result of leaving my recording software going while turning one game off, then turning on another.
- The picture is quite unstable in some places (see the Tetris videos for a clear example... watch them at 720p in full screen). I think this is more the crappy cables I ended up with than anything else. Yes the cables I think are pulling RGB, but objects with straight edges turn out looking wavy and unstable. Bad form :(
Ok, so why am I going to all this trouble to record old systems. Well for one, I 'm a stickler for good quality. I'm no engineer, but I try hard to get the best I can from what I've got. Until recently, I was considering using emulators... until I read this: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator.ars
That pretty much put the nail in the coffin for me, as far as emulators were concerned. I gave bsnes a shot and, yes, it's basically perfect, but my tests showed me that the slightest hiccup on the cpu/core that bsnes runs on would cause audio pops or frame-rate hitches, which is unacceptable for my recordings. I could get it to where that wouldn't happen, but it's such a delicate setup, that I'd rather go with recording off the actual console. And by the way, that's in no way a knock against bsnes or other cycle-accurate emulators. I'm all for it, because I want authentic emulation, not close-but-not-quite emulation. I just can't depend on them when I need to record.
I may do some recordings off of cycle-accurate NES emulators (NES systems with RGB output are extreeeemely hard to find), possibly some Genesis stuff if I can record without issues, but I have to record SNES gameplay off an actual console. But what's the moral of this story and how does one find what they need?
For starters DO NOT trust just any ebay seller's RGB cables for old systems (snes, genesis, saturn, playstation, pc engine, etc). Too many sellers will take liberties with how their cables are described. RGB could just mean "crappy composite signal... but you will see red green and blue colors on your screen." NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Even if they are true RGB cables (meaning, the Red, Green, and Blue signals are carried on separate lines in the cable, not all together on one line, which degrades quality), many sellers won't properly shield/ground the cables, leading to unstable pictures (bad/weak sync-signal), noisy audio, etc.
Secondly, if you care about pixel-perfect representations of the games, don't use just any RGB to HDMI device (or SCART to Component, for that matter). The one I used is the StarTech ConvergeAV SCART2HDMITV. StarTech makes great stuff, and I think when I get some good cables I will see the quality coming out of the converter increase. But that still leaves the issue of not respecting the source signal's aspect ratios. It's fine if you just want to convert to HDMI for playing/watching, it's no good for recording or preserving the original picture.
To resolve all this, I've found what I think will be a dependable vendor for quality cables on ebay, and I've ordered another RGB to HDMI device that's made specifically for working with these old game systems :D. Once I've tested with the new equipment, I'll post some results to YouTube and possibly the blog as well (http://www.pheedbaq.com). Stay Tuned!
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI have been thinking about upgrading as many of my old consoles as possible to the SCART/RGB setup.
Everything was fine and dandy until we upgraded to a 52" Samsung HDTV in '08 and then I pretty much stopped playing my old consoles because they looked so bad it was just depressing. I a ok with emulation, but I'd rather play the originals when possible.
I've been reading up as much as possible on these and searching eBay for good sellers.
Since you've gone ahead and tried this can you give me a bit of advice on who to buy from?
I saw this girl on eBay (originally in the UK, but now in the US). She claims to have the best quality (true RGB) + modifies them herself and seems to have very positive feedback. She does mention some possible syncing problems which worries me because I've heard Samsungs don't play nice with low resolutions.
I've also heard the older SCART to Component yield better results than the HDMI convertors.
Any advice would be very appreciated.
Thank You,
Matt
From what you describe, it sounds like you may have found the same ebay vendor that I did (retro_console_accessories). I can definitely vouch for them, as I've tried a bunch of other random vendors on ebay and results ranged from bad to "just ok". Now that I've tested with retro's cables, I will only be buying from them from now on, as I don't think anyone else actually gives a rip about quality like they do.
DeleteAlso, if you have issues, be patient with them. Just contact them and explain what's going on. They've been very helpful with me in troubleshooting some issues and replacing things that needed to be. And again, they make high-quality a priority.
As far as other equipment, I still need to run a few more tests on that StarTech HDMI converter, as I think it was bad cables causing most of the issues, but that still leaves the wonky aspect ratios, so I'd steer clear of it even if the picture looked fantastic. There might be one or two other SCART to HDMI converters that could be as good/better than the SCART to Component adapters, but most that you'll find are just garbage and they're hard to find too.
I did do a bunch of research on the SCART to Component adapters as well, and the problem I found was that they do not pass through progressive scan signals (not all games even have this, though). Might not be a big deal for you, I dunno. If it's not, then based on the research I did, the best adapters seemed to be the CSY-2100 and the CVS-287. They don't split out the audio, but retro has a high-quality adapter that will do that.
Ultimately, I ended up purchasing an XRGB-mini, and raw-sync SCART cables from retro on ebay. I'm very pleased with the XRGB. It handles progressive scan signals, outputs HDMI with correct aspect ratios and superb picture, has a ton of tweaking options, and I can readily find forums discussing it. It could very likely be overkill for what you need though, and the price is a lil' scary (~$500 brand new).
The following site is probably the best out there for reviewing the XRGB and other similar devices, along with the issues that come with using RGB equipment:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
Also, be sure you read up on the difference between EURO-SCART and JP 21-pin RGB. They use the same connector, but different wiring, and you can fry equipment if you're using the wrong one. I believe the component converters I mentioned take EURO-SCART. I'd advise always going for the EURO type as well, since most equipment takes that (XRGB being one exception, but you can get adapters).
That's about all I can think of. RGB on classic consoles can seem daunting because of all the details, but stick with it, do lots of research, and I'm pretty confident you'll be extremely satisfied with the results.
And if it becomes too much of a headache to wade through all this... S-video is dead simple and actually very good :D
Hi!
ReplyDeleteFor capturing it shouldn't matter that the video is 16:9. Basically any signal through HDMI is 16:9 anyway. What you then do is scale the image back to a 4:3 resolution like 640 x 480 or 1024 x 768.
Yes, but my point is really that a SCART to HDMI converter should NOT expect that all input signals will be 16:9. I mean that should be obvious if you're accepting an older analog standard. You're accepting an SD input, and somehow everyone is expected to be OK with their SD content always showing up stretched out??? No, StarTech just did a poor job on this thing. Granted, it's not made for games, but still, why the heck would I run any old 4:3 content through this converter if I knew the original aspect ratio wouldn't be respected? Who wants to watch their old stuff in "fat" mode??
ReplyDeleteHi Pheedbaq, I have an Australian PAL SNES, and recently bought the RGB scart cable for it (from a local supplier) and I also connected it to a SCART to HDMI converter to use on my HDTVs, this is the converter (http://www.cablechick.com.au/cables/scart-to-hdmi-converter.html). 99% of the time it always shows up a composite CVBS signal, and only 3 times have I seen an RGB signal. I got a new converter and the same thing happened. Not sure what the issue is, I have ordered a new cable and will check with that, however i have also removed the capacitors in the scart from the RGB cables, and still no difference. I have now ordered the xrgb-mini with a euro scart to Jap scart converter to fit into the Jap scart to mini RGB plug that comes with it. Hopefully this will work. Any suggestions, feedback as to why my RGB cable and scart to HDMI kit isn't working would be great. Worst case is I use s-video with the xrgb-mini.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
Sounds like your cable is spitting out both composite and RGB video, and the converter is randomly picking which one it processes. I'd look into getting a dedicated RGB cable, that way your converter only has one signal to choose from. retro_console_accessories is an excellent e-bay seller for RGB cables, top-notch.
Deletethanks for your reply, but wouldn't that be the same as opening the cable up and disconnecting the composite video cable? I did that and got no video from it.
DeleteHmm, I don't know exactly. I'm not sure I'm expert enough on SCART wiring (or wiring in general lol) to be able to tell you one way or the other. There could be other wires in the connector that "hint" at composite signal being present, so the TV or whatever you're hooking up to still tries to look for it instead of taking RGB. Or it could be that wire is necessary for the RGB signal. I'm really not sure.
DeleteSorry I can't be more help here :(
I will say the XRGB should work fine if your RGB cables are good. If I were faced with just using S-video versus RGB, I'd be buying new RGB cables ;) If I went to the trouble obtaining an XRGB, S-video would be last resort.
Hope you're able to get it worked out. I had issues initially getting into RGB, but I think that was just a result of needing to learn about the different wirings, adapters I needed, etc.
My current XRGB setup uses a EURO-SCART to JP convert that is also a signal booster, and all the cables I use are strictly RGB w/ a dedicated sync signal. I bought all that from that e-bay seller I mentioned, retro_console_accessories. Good stuff :)
I bought a new RGB scart cable from retro_console a few days ago, and looking to hook this to a euro scart to Jap 21 scart cable, then to the jap 21 to mini-din RGB input on the xrgb-mini.
ReplyDeletehopefully this works fine. will let you know my results.
I dont understand the when you say 'RGB with dedicated synch signal', what does that mean? how is it better?
thanks.
It's just the version of the cable that retro offered with "pure sync". I'm pretty sure that means the sync signal sits all by itself on its own wire, without being coupled together with any other signal on that wire.
DeleteYes, but how have you solved the problem of increased signal degradation, inherent to organo-syntehtic transmission?
ReplyDelete